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Things seem to be moving closer to finished state.
All my comments relate to the dec 20/21 release

I recieved the e-mail (eDTPWorld) stating that we are now testing rc1, I
found this slightly disappointing as there are still things that are
serious impediments to full usability. I don't want to sound negative
as great progress has been made and the accelerated pace of updates is
encouraging.

Stability is improving and I would not feel bad about trying to use
PageStream 4 for real projects but there are also fundamental things
that I think would be impediments to full time "professional" use.

Now the bad

Crashes:
So far I've had 2 situations that lead to segfaults (I am only creating
small, 1 page documents and trying out features).

First:
When opening a small document w/ a font that is no longer available (not
sure how that happened, I don't remember removing any fonts), I chose
"convert" and rather than use the default fonts in the font
substitution box I chose something close to the original font . When I
click done I get a segfault. The first time this happened thought it
might have been a fluke but I just tried again and the segfault occured
again. It does not happen every time and I'm not sure how to reproduce
it. It also happens w/ "display" as well as "convert"

Second:
I create a new document, add some text, change a few boxes and objects.
Then close the document. If I choose "don't save" I get a segfault
about 50% of the time. Not sure what I might be doing, in at least 1
case all I did was create a text box, type some text, change the font
and size, then close the document.

Missing or Problem Features.

Pretend I'm writing in all caps here "Font Selector"

Imagine I had a document with 5 fonts in it that were no longer
available. I open the document w/ PageStream and the Font replacement
Dialogue pops up. So far so good.

Lets say all 5 of these fonts have names beginning with the letters "T"
thru "Z" (Triumvirate through Zapf).
If I use the available font selector to change the fonts it will take
more than 10 minutes for me just to open the document due to the (lack
of) speed in the font menu. A font requester mechanism is definately
needed. If I had a segfault after this 10 minute font selection process
I would be Terribly Disappointed indeed.

(My example is on an athlon 2000xp with 512 mb memory and 2gb swap)

The font selection menu may work for some people but its got to be alot
faster to be useful. Unless a font selector as fast as m$Word, GoBE
Productive or OpenOffice can be provided I think PageStream will be at
a serious disadvantage (note that all 3 of these font menu's provide
previews as well).

Successes!
Windows seem to open pretty much where I expect them to
All windows follow the state of the document window, no more iconifying
each window seperately. (Windowshade works great but the Iconify gadget
has disappeared on most windows and is non-functional on the rest) At
least the consistancy is greatly improved.

ToolBox still ugly when in vertical orientation (window to big in order
to accomodate window gadgets)

Thanks again for your hard work
- --
dh
Don't shop at GoogleGear.com!
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To extend my last mail
I find Pagestream to be getting close to usability.
The problems I see are mainly font selection issues and issues related
to getting smooth intigration of gtk apps on a kde3 desktop.

You asked for people to publish systeminfo so here's mine.
Athlon xp2000+, 512 mb memory, 2 gig swap
SuSE 8.1 pro,
Kernel 2.4.19-308 with win4lin patches
kde 3.1.4
xfree86 4.2.0
pretty much up to date w/ apt4suse

> Thanks again for your hard work

- --
dh
Don't shop at GoogleGear.com!
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On Monday 22 December 2003 23:51, David Herman wrote:
> To extend my last mail
> I find Pagestream to be getting close to usability.
> The problems I see are mainly font selection issues and issues related
> to getting smooth intigration of gtk apps on a kde3 desktop.
>
> You asked for people to publish systeminfo so here's mine.
> Athlon xp2000+, 512 mb memory, 2 gig swap
> SuSE 8.1 pro,
> Kernel 2.4.19-308 with win4lin patches
> kde 3.1.4
> xfree86 4.2.0
> pretty much up to date w/ apt4suse
>
> > Thanks again for your hard work

I agree with your reservations about this being RC1. Yes, there have been
great strides, but it seems to me that it is still quite beta (insufficient
testing -- I think if people do start to use it for projects things will come
up). Perhaps I'm too conservative, but that is my opinion.

I do not have any of the problems you are experiencing and my system is close
to yours: Athlon XP2000+, 512MB memory (although probably not as much swap,
can't say I'm a fan of it), SuSE 8.2 -- but I'm not using Win4Lin patches. I
would suspect that, as it is kernel alterations, as being a possible culprit
for the two problems you mention. I often create new documents, one page,
just a few things on them and whether new or not almost always select "don't
save" and have not experienced seg-faults (at least not with recent
versions). Likewise, my font selection does not suffer the slowness. I have a
document that I created in PgS Linux and, like you, I don't remember removing
fonts but it is using one that I don't have installed (Tomas). So every time
(four? five? so far) I open this document I get the font substitution
requester and so far have not experienced a crash from this. There used to be
a problem with this, but its been fixed -- at least for me.

Something I keep forgetting to mention: I consider not being able to print
duplex to a duplexing printer a bug. I can analyze the postscript output
again and identify the wrapper/mark that causes this behavior (it was outside
of the page mark). Unfortunately I'm always working around my work day and
private life so it makes it hard for me to bring full thoughts to bear on
writing these emails or to test thoroughly.

A comment about speed: I'm (pleasantly) surprised that PgS -- on my system --
is more responsive than Open Office. It opens much more quickly, opens
documents more quickly, types more quickly.

Tim Doty

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On Tuesday 23 December 2003 05:49 am, Tim Doty wrote:
> On Monday 22 December 2003 23:51, David Herman wrote:
> > To extend my last mail
- ----------snip------------
>
> I do not have any of the problems you are experiencing and my system
> is close to yours: Athlon XP2000+, 512MB memory (although probably
> not as much swap, can't say I'm a fan of it), SuSE 8.2 -- but I'm not
> using Win4Lin patches. I would suspect that, as it is kernel
> alterations, as being a possible culprit for the two problems you
> mention.

I considered that as a possibility. Just ran the 4.1.6.15 version and
had the same crash (after selecting analternate font in the "font
Substitution" dialogue). Curiously I ran the same test 2 more times
(opened same document, made same substitution change) and then on
another small document and it worked w/out crashing. Unfortunately I
didn't save the bugbuddy output, I expected that I would be able to
recreate the crash but can't so far. (not sure if I should insert a
smiley or a frowney for that one

I often create new documents, one page, just a few things on
> them and whether new or not almost always select "don't save" and
> have not experienced seg-faults (at least not with recent versions).

The "don't save" crash hasn't occured in the 4 times I've tried it on
4.1.6.15, maybe its gone or maybe its hiding like the font sub crash.

> Likewise, my font selection does not suffer the slowness.

perhaps we have diferences in our font paths, I have a large # of fonts
on my system.

> I have a
> document that I created in PgS Linux and, like you, I don't remember
> removing fonts but it is using one that I don't have installed
> (Tomas). So every time (four? five? so far) I open this document I
> get the font substitution requester and so far have not experienced a
> crash from this.

See above, , perhaps a bug related to specific fonts?

> There used to be a problem with this, but its been
> fixed -- at least for me.
>
- -------------snip------------>
> A comment about speed: I'm (pleasantly) surprised that PgS -- on my
> system -- is more responsive than Open Office. It opens much more
> quickly, opens documents more quickly, types more quickly.

I use OOoqs so Open office starts fairly quickly but I agree PageStreams
startup time is totally acceptable. There are still some screen update
issues (when adding to text that runs behind an image). I work around
this bt windowshading then restoring the document window.

Question for Deron, Would it be useful for us to send bugbuddy output to
you? It seems like the list is probably not the place for these

- --
dh
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>I use OOoqs so Open office starts fairly quickly but I agree PageStreams
>startup time is totally acceptable. There are still some screen update
>issues (when adding to text that runs behind an image). I work around
>this bt windowshading then restoring the document window.

If you mean typing for text that is behind a picture, PageStream has always
done that. After all, text hidden while you type isn't much use. Just
redraw the screen when you are done typing (f10 will do it if you have the
default scripts).

>Question for Deron, Would it be useful for us to send bugbuddy output to
>you? It seems like the list is probably not the place for these

Yes, you should probably send those direct to me at support@grasshopperllc.com

>dh

Deron Kazmaier - support@grasshopperllc.com
Grasshopper LLC Publishing -http://www.grasshopperllc.com
PageStream DTP for Amiga, Linux, Macintosh, and Windows

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I recieved the e-mail (eDTPWorld) stating that we are now testing rc1, I
>found this slightly disappointing as there are still things that are
>serious impediments to full usability. I don't want to sound negative
>as great progress has been made and the accelerated pace of updates is
>encouraging.

Well, I've fixed all the repeatable bugs I've received so far. Opening up
this version to the public will help get any final nigglies out in the
open. If it crashes, I care. If you are talking about "takes to long to
select fonts in font substutition" I am certainly listening, but I wouldn't
call it a show stopper. I'll cover that specific later.

>Stability is improving and I would not feel bad about trying to use
>PageStream 4 for real projects but there are also fundamental things
>that I think would be impediments to full time "professional" use.
>
>Now the bad
>
>Crashes:
>So far I've had 2 situations that lead to segfaults (I am only creating
>small, 1 page documents and trying out features).
>
>First:
>When opening a small document w/ a font that is no longer available (not
>sure how that happened, I don't remember removing any fonts), I chose
>"convert" and rather than use the default fonts in the font
>substitution box I chose something close to the original font . When I
>click done I get a segfault. The first time this happened thought it
>might have been a fluke but I just tried again and the segfault occured
>again. It does not happen every time and I'm not sure how to reproduce
>it. It also happens w/ "display" as well as "convert"

OK, I'll play with it for a while and try and get it to reproduce. If you
can provide any stack trace or other feedback maybe this will help?

>Second:
>I create a new document, add some text, change a few boxes and objects.
>Then close the document. If I choose "don't save" I get a segfault
>about 50% of the time. Not sure what I might be doing, in at least 1
>case all I did was create a text box, type some text, change the font
>and size, then close the document.

Same as above. If anything, this is something that get's too well tested
here. I don't save very often, which is of course a bigger concern.

>Missing or Problem Features.
>
>Pretend I'm writing in all caps here "Font Selector"
>
>Imagine I had a document with 5 fonts in it that were no longer
>available. I open the document w/ PageStream and the Font replacement
>Dialogue pops up. So far so good.
>
>Lets say all 5 of these fonts have names beginning with the letters "T"
>thru "Z" (Triumvirate through Zapf).
>If I use the available font selector to change the fonts it will take
>more than 10 minutes for me just to open the document due to the (lack
>of) speed in the font menu. A font requester mechanism is definately
>needed. If I had a segfault after this 10 minute font selection process
>I would be Terribly Disappointed indeed.

Well, I can't do much about the font popup. Choosing from 1000items from a
popup is going to be slow. I don't know what else I can do. Hey, what if I
put a button to bring up the font selector? Then you can see previews etc
as well.

>(My example is on an athlon 2000xp with 512 mb memory and 2gb swap)
>
>The font selection menu may work for some people but its got to be alot
>faster to be useful. Unless a font selector as fast as m$Word, GoBE
>Productive or OpenOffice can be provided I think PageStream will be at
>a serious disadvantage (note that all 3 of these font menu's provide
>previews as well).

Are you comparing the same functionality? are you talking about they have a
faster font popup? How? Seems the same to me...

>Successes!
>Windows seem to open pretty much where I expect them to
>All windows follow the state of the document window, no more iconifying
>each window seperately. (Windowshade works great but the Iconify gadget
>has disappeared on most windows and is non-functional on the rest) At
>least the consistancy is greatly improved.
>
>ToolBox still ugly when in vertical orientation (window to big in order
>to accomodate window gadgets)

I still haven't figured out why KDE is adding the extra widget. It is a
non-resizeable window and is parented to another window... This should be
under the control of x-windows anyway and have nothing to do with QT vs GTK...

>Thanks again for your hard work
>- --
>dh

Deron Kazmaier - support@grasshopperllc.com
Grasshopper LLC Publishing -http://www.grasshopperllc.com
PageStream DTP for Amiga, Linux, Macintosh, and Windows

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I presume that you needed to add libgnomeui2 for PageStream? (Another user
with 8.2 had to).

Deron

>To extend my last mail
>I find Pagestream to be getting close to usability.
>The problems I see are mainly font selection issues and issues related
>to getting smooth intigration of gtk apps on a kde3 desktop.
>
>You asked for people to publish systeminfo so here's mine.
>Athlon xp2000+, 512 mb memory, 2 gig swap
>SuSE 8.1 pro,
>Kernel 2.4.19-308 with win4lin patches
>kde 3.1.4
>xfree86 4.2.0
>pretty much up to date w/ apt4suse
>
> > Thanks again for your hard work
>
>- --
>dh

Deron Kazmaier - support@grasshopperllc.com
Grasshopper LLC Publishing -http://www.grasshopperllc.com
PageStream DTP for Amiga, Linux, Macintosh, and Windows

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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On Tuesday 23 December 2003 11:31 am, PageStream Support wrote:
> >I use OOoqs so Open office starts fairly quickly but I agree
> > PageStreams startup time is totally acceptable. There are still
> > some screen update issues (when adding to text that runs behind an
> > image). I work around this bt windowshading then restoring the
> > document window.
>
> If you mean typing for text that is behind a picture, PageStream has
> always done that. After all, text hidden while you type isn't much
> use. Just redraw the screen when you are done typing (f10 will do it
> if you have the default scripts).

Yeah I realized that the next time I looked at it. Not sure why I want
text behind the graphic but thats another kettle of fish. Thanks for
the redraw tip.

>
> >Question for Deron, Would it be useful for us to send bugbuddy
> > output to you? It seems like the list is probably not the place for
> > these
>
> Yes, you should probably send those direct to me at
> support@grasshopperllc.com

Will do

See ya
- --
dh
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On Tuesday 23 December 2003 12:27 pm, PageStream Support wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I presume that you needed to add libgnomeui2 for PageStream? (Another
> user with 8.2 had to).
>
> Deron

I'm at versions 1.116.0-... for both of these libs. Upgrading to the
2.2.1.1... versions will break gnumeric on my system but I could do it
if need be. (Actually I decided to try an upgrsade of these 2 packages
as I am writing this, OO.orgs spreadsheet meets most of my needs)

SuSE's gnume support is pretty abysmal (release versions work fine but
updates are spotty and inconsistant) , that may change w/ the novell
aquisition though.

See ya
- --
dh
Don't shop at GoogleGear.com!
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On Tuesday 23 December 2003 12:23 pm, PageStream Support wrote:
- -------------snip----------------
>
> Well, I can't do much about the font popup. Choosing from 1000items
> from a popup is going to be slow. I don't know what else I can do.
> Hey, what if I put a button to bring up the font selector? Then you
> can see previews etc as well.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear. It would be great if this could be
implemented w/ the "Edit Palette" window as well.
As for the font popup it seems that there should be some way to
implement a scrollbar (as in OpenOffice) but my needs (in this
situation) would be met with the font selector. Remember I'm not a
programmer so I have no conception of how dificult it is to implement
the things I ask.

>
> >(My example is on an athlon 2000xp with 512 mb memory and 2gb swap)
> >
> >The font selection menu may work for some people but its got to be
> > alot faster to be useful. Unless a font selector as fast as m$Word,
> > GoBE Productive or OpenOffice can be provided I think PageStream
> > will be at a serious disadvantage (note that all 3 of these font
> > menu's provide previews as well).
>
> Are you comparing the same functionality? are you talking about they
> have a faster font popup? How? Seems the same to me...

The popup opens just as fast in Pagestream but scrolling from Arial
(font) to Zapf Dingbat is seriously slow (more than 2 minutes on my
machine) in PageStream while OpenOffice, etc operate almost as fast as
I can slide their scrollbars. (PageStream's Font Selector works at the
kind of speed I desire and see from these other apps)

- --------snip---------

I'll try to remember to send a reasonable amount of info w/ future crash
reports.

As always thank you so much for your efforts.
Happy Holidays to you
- --
dh
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>I agree with your reservations about this being RC1. Yes, there have been
>great strides, but it seems to me that it is still quite beta (insufficient
>testing -- I think if people do start to use it for projects things will come
>up). Perhaps I'm too conservative, but that is my opinion.

Well, I'm sure things will come up, but things are always coming up. I've
seen every release of PageStream, and this is the absolute best first
release for any platform Tells you something about the rough roads in
the past, but it also says something about this version.

We have used the product in house quite a bit, but with not so varying
numbers of distros/hardware. No one is calling this perfect, but that it is
done as far as I can tell, and that we need more feedback. More users. More
testers. I've also never put a demo version up before. This gives folks a
chance to download and run it for themselves. I'm of course hoping that if
it _doesn't_ work for them, that they will report why so we can fix it!

>Something I keep forgetting to mention: I consider not being able to print
>duplex to a duplexing printer a bug. I can analyze the postscript output
>again and identify the wrapper/mark that causes this behavior (it was outside
>of the page mark). Unfortunately I'm always working around my work day and
>private life so it makes it hard for me to bring full thoughts to bear on
>writing these emails or to test thoroughly.

Well, PageStream has never supported those extended PPD features. You can
call it anything you want, but it is not, nor has been, a feature of
PageStream. Do I wish it could? You bet. Will I work on it, sure.
PageStream doesn't do feathering, or font width justfiication, but I
wouldn't call them bugs

>A comment about speed: I'm (pleasantly) surprised that PgS -- on my system --
>is more responsive than Open Office. It opens much more quickly, opens
>documents more quickly, types more quickly.

Thanks. Truly I was surprised. In the display library, I am using full
alpha channel manipulations (including per channel alpha for some of it)
and I expected that I was going to have to really fine tune it to get it to
run well. As it is, this is first run at it, so I am happy. What I hope
this means is that I can add more interesting layers features in the future
and with just a little tweaking keep it this fast (or faster). I won't
optimize the code unless I have to. No point in making it any more
unreadable than it already is!

Of course, FreeType has something to do with that as well. It is really a
well done font engine. I'm very pleased with it.

>Tim Doty

Deron Kazmaier - support@grasshopperllc.com
Grasshopper LLC Publishing -http://www.grasshopperllc.com
PageStream DTP for Amiga, Linux, Macintosh, and Windows

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tuesday 23 December 2003 14:47, PageStream Support wrote:
> >I agree with your reservations about this being RC1. Yes, there have been
> >great strides, but it seems to me that it is still quite beta
> > (insufficient testing -- I think if people do start to use it for
> > projects things will come up). Perhaps I'm too conservative, but that is
> > my opinion.
>
> Well, I'm sure things will come up, but things are always coming up. I've
> seen every release of PageStream, and this is the absolute best first
> release for any platform Tells you something about the rough roads in
> the past, but it also says something about this version.
>
> We have used the product in house quite a bit, but with not so varying
> numbers of distros/hardware. No one is calling this perfect, but that it is
> done as far as I can tell, and that we need more feedback. More users. More
> testers. I've also never put a demo version up before. This gives folks a
> chance to download and run it for themselves. I'm of course hoping that if
> it _doesn't_ work for them, that they will report why so we can fix it!

I'm not trying to be negative (though sometimes I think I come across that
way): but I want people to have a positive experience with PgS. And as for
ready to go... I remember the PgS 3.0 Amiga release. Now that was painful. I
think PgS is an amazing program and I'm very happy with what you have done
and I hope that comes through.
>
> >Something I keep forgetting to mention: I consider not being able to print
> >duplex to a duplexing printer a bug. I can analyze the postscript output
> >again and identify the wrapper/mark that causes this behavior (it was
> > outside of the page mark). Unfortunately I'm always working around my
> > work day and private life so it makes it hard for me to bring full
> > thoughts to bear on writing these emails or to test thoroughly.
>
> Well, PageStream has never supported those extended PPD features. You can
> call it anything you want, but it is not, nor has been, a feature of
> PageStream. Do I wish it could? You bet. Will I work on it, sure.
> PageStream doesn't do feathering, or font width justfiication, but I
> wouldn't call them bugs

Well... Yes, I know PgS hasn't supported them but as CUPS *provides* this
functionality it isn't like it should require anything from PgS. I get it
from my text editor, or if I print with a2ps, or from Acrobat, or indeed from
anything except PgS. I'm not going to pretend that I know how hard or easy it
would be to alter the postscript engine to correct this behavior and you have
indicated that it is on the list: that is good enough for me.

Finally, a comment about updates. Wow! I don't think I'll be able to keep up,
but I'll try. I want PgS Linux to succeed so I'm trying to do what I can to
identify problems/shortcomings/bugs. You're certainly doing a knockup job
getting everything coded.

Tim Doty